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Am I On the Right Blog?
Tuesday, February 26, 2008

There's absolutely no doubt that during the last week I have come to a position about this "breastfeeding in school" case that I'm well aware grates on many of you. I can appreciate that. In fact, many of you are probably wondering: Am I on the right blog? Did Jennifer bump her head and lose her mind?

No. I haven't.

In reading a lot of the comments it dawned on me -- rather pointedly -- that there is this huge, often contentious debate raging around the world in favor of either breastfeeding rights or bottle-feeding rights and it troubles me greatly.

I know we don't live in a perfect world. And I also know that if mothers and breastfeeding advocates don't stand up for their rights, the bottle-feeding community will dominate the infant feeding landscape and that would be unfortunate.

But in a lot of the comments that were posted I heard language, tone, and sentiments that bottle-feeding mothers and anti-NIP people often complain about; that there is no leeway or middle ground in the breastfeeding debate.

I didn't like it.

As a result, I have decided to reevaluate my own attitudes about breastfeeding advocacy. I am more willing to look at other people's attitudes about their own infant feeding choices and not look down on mothers from some sanctimonious breastfeeding high perch.

While I believe mothers should breastfeed wherever they have a right to be, I think it is incumbent upon mothers when they are in the presence of other people's children to respect the possibility that their parents may not want their children viewing the act, no matter how natural breastfeeding is. Everyone doesn't see the world in which we do. I respect that.

My stance on this issue may be overwhelmingly complicated, but I stick by it.

Labels: breastfeeding in public, commentary

posted by Jennifer James @ 4:21 AM,

22 Comments:

At February 27, 2008 9:48 AM, Jake said...: For clarification Jennifer, do you mean that you believe the school should have the legal right to forbid breastfeeding? Whether or not personal feelings should be considered is one question. Whether breastfeeding should be prohibited by law in public space is an entirely seperate one. It isn't clear to me what you are saying regarding the second question.
At February 27, 2008 10:05 AM, Jennifer James said...: Not at all. I simply believe mothers should have the forethought to consider the feelings and perspectives of other people's children before breastfeeding in front of them in a school setting.
At February 27, 2008 2:46 PM, Jake said...: Thanks Jennifer. :) I was a little worried. ;)

I don't have a "this is what you must do in this situation for the good of the movement" position on this, as I know some people do. I do think where and how one will nurse is a matter of personal choice. If I were to alter my nursing behavior because someone disapproves of it, I am giving validity to their belief that public breastfeeding is inappropriate.

If I were entering a space belonging to a different culture or religion, or entering private space, I would alter my behavior out of respect for the beliefs of the people whose space I have now entered (or chose not to go there). Sending one's children to public school involves accepting the child will encounter the public, which includes diverse views and behaviors. This is a situation where one side must win - inclusion or exclusion. We have private space from which we may exclude people whose legal conduct offends our sensibilities - public school isn't one of those places.
At February 29, 2008 12:57 AM, Anonymous said...: If a baby has got to eat, a baby has got to eat!!! May-be there can be some "cover up" in different situation, but by no means should a mother-just not go to eat lunch with her child, or make the baby wait to eat!!!!!!!!
TRUTH PREVAILS-maybe I don't want my child viewing a mother doing such an unnatural, neglectful act of bottle feeding !!!!!!!!!!Propping the bottle would be too graphic for my kids!!!Proping the bottle would be too grafic for my kids!!!
At March 1, 2008 12:34 AM, Micky said...: Here's my stance. I always evaluate where I am and who is around before I breastfeed or play peek-a-boo or change a diaper. I am nursing an almost 2 yr old. Can he wait? Yes, sometimes he can wait. At school for lunch, he could probably wait to nurse and just eat lunch with the big kids BUT, would I nurse around the other kids. Most of the time, probably yes. I have nursed him at Chapel and other events. I am quiet and discreet and most of the time no one even notices. It is MORE distracting and loud if he starts throwing a fit b/c he wants to nurse and I am trying to explain that he needs to wait. Sometimes I didn't pack a sippy cup and it is my fault. Usually if he has a snack or drink it's okay. However, sometimes he wants to drift off to sleep or isn't feeling well and would rather nurse.

However, I take issue with the "other people might not want their children to see it" argument. I would by that if these were people that didn't let their children go to a pool or beach with a woman in a bikini or didn't allow TV. Most of these kids have seen more breast in their first trip to the pool, than they ever will sitting near a breastfeeding mom at the school lunch table.

2nd, isn't this where they want their child to learn what the body is for?

3rd - She wasn't doing anything WRONG or improper for public. Now, sex isn't inherently wrong either but I wouldn't want someone doing that in front of my kid. But sex is NOT a public behavior. Breastfeeding is. If eating is a public behavior, than babies eating or in this case breastfeeding is a public behavior. Period.

I don't like it when my children see a baby being bottle fed or hear women talk about how horrible birth is or how c-sections are the way to go. But I can't make them go away. I just have to teach them what I believe at home. Same with these parents. IF they don't want their child to know breasts are for feeding babies, they can reeducate them at home.

Micky
At March 1, 2008 1:38 AM, Fat Lady said...: I know I'm on the right blog because you're taking pretty much the same position now about breastfeeding in a public space occupied by children that you took a year ago about public breastfeeding in general.

If I remember correctly that discussion was started by a post you wrote about Maggie Gyllenhaal openly breastfeeding in public while chatting with a male companion. And, again, if I remember correctly, you felt that the sensibilities of others should be considered over the right of the mother and child to nurse. You eventually, altered your position on that - but I think your basic ideals with regard to nursing in public really do lean more towards protecting the comfort levels of those who are not ease with the idea of women breastfeeding.

I will be honest and say that I truly don't understand this kind of thinking. Trying to maintain the status quo, to protect a negative standard, in situations where change is both necessary and healthy is totally beyond me.

When my father was a young man going to college in the south and chose to participate in sit-ins at restaurants and lunch counters that wouldn't serve black people, there were those (black people) who told him that it was wrong to upset the white people like that. Why couldn't he leave well enough alone and just go to a black restaurant?

Were those people right? Should he, and thousands of others like him, have considered the sensibilities of those who felt that black people and white people shouldn't eat in the same place?

What about Ruby Bridges and those kids who were the first to integrate some schools? Should they have not gone to those schools to protect the feelings and perspectives of people who were disturbed at the thought of their kids going to school with black children?

Now you might say that fighting against racism isn't the same as breastfeeding openly. But I don't really see a difference. In both cases people are faced with prejudices that are based on misconceptions and negative opinions.

The people who didn't want black people sitting in the same restaurants and schools as themselves and their children probably found that just as offensive and repulsive as those who believe that breastfeeding is something that should not be done in public or in front of children.

And I am at a complete and utter loss as to why you would want to protect the feelings and sensibilities of those who are prejudiced against breastfeeding.

What makes that perspective worth defending and protecting?

Shouldn't that way of thinking be challenged and questioned?

In my mind it should. It's not just about getting a child fed or comforted. It's about changing the attitudes and perceptions of people who are holding on to antiquated, wrong, dangerous beliefs.

When I was a kid, in second grade, I made friends with a girl in my class who was of Irish descent. When her family realized that her new best friend was a black girl, they pulled her out of the school and sent her to the Catholic school in the neighborhood - where pretty much everyone was Irish.

I never saw her again, but I've always hoped that the time her and I spent together as friends helped to change her into a person who was more likely to reject racist thoughts than accept them.

Real prejudice needs distance and ignorance to sustain itself. Exposure to and knowledge of the thing people are prejudiced against is the surest way to break through the misconceptions they have about it.

When a person meets and gets to know someone from a group they are prejudiced against - it is harder to maintain that prejudice because they can't help but begin to find common ground, similarities and to discover that this person is not so different from themselves.

I believe that exposure to breastfeeding is the same way. The more you see it, the more you encounter it, the more you know about it, the more difficult it is for any preconceived notions to maintain themselves.

Only people who have not spent time around a nursing mother and child believe it to be sexual or disgusting or messy. Those who've spent considerable time in the presence of breastfeeding tend to find it amazingly unremarkable.

I think laws that protect the rights of women to breastfeed their children where ever they might be are not just protecting a convenience. These laws are providing the opportunity for changing attitudes - for shaping thoughts - for creating an atmosphere in which society can begin to see the healthier, more natural and normal choice as the right one. Not the kind of right one - but the really best choice.

Not that I really take issue with bottle feeding. I never have and never will look down on or comment on a woman who has chosen to bottlefeed.

But saying that breast is best is just an empty platitude as long as people are saying, "It's best but don't do it in front of me or my kids." Saying "breast is best - but keep it hidden" is just about as valid and believable as saying "separate but equal."
At March 1, 2008 4:26 AM, Jennifer James said...: Fat Lady -- now you know you cannot equate centuries of racial discrimination in this country to breastfeeding rights. That's a real stretch. Getting one's head smashed in at a lunch counter or being water hosed up against a brick building is far worse that someone asking a breastfeeding mother to cover up. Come on now.
At March 1, 2008 9:02 AM, Fat Lady said...: I am not comparing the EFFECTS of racism and to those of discrimination against breastfeeding.

However, prejudice is prejudice. It is wrong, ignorant thinking that should not be condoned - whether it is against people because of their ethnicity or women because of how they choose to feed their children.

In fact I believe, that if looked at in a greater context, these instances of women being confronted for feeding their children are really a manifestation of sexism. Notice how, in case after case, the women who are harassed while nursing their children are alone or with other women. I have never heard of one instance of a woman nursing her child with her husband at her side who was asked to stop.

Now, I know that the effects of racism and sexism are very different. But, again, the thinking behind them comes from the same place and should not be condoned or catered to.

That you would prefer to focus on the differences in the effects rather than look at the similarities of the mindset behind the behaviors says to me that you are determined not to open your eyes to any point of view that differs from your own.

It is most certainly fine for you to hold your opinion, but I don't think you can call yourself a breastfeeding advocate when you defend the prejudices of those would discriminate against breastfeeders and believe that breastfeeding mothers should cater to those prejudices.
At March 1, 2008 1:07 PM, Jennifer James said...: Fat Lady -- My original argument was I do not think it is appropriate for nursing mothers to breastfeed in front of other people's children in a school setting. It's rude and presumes that everybody thinks the way we do about breastfeeding. Now, you're making it out like I don't support breastfeeding in public AT ALL. Don't get it twisted.

I am open-minded enough and thoughtful enough to consider the rights of other people before nursing in front of their kid. I can also appreciate that we live in a society where everyone does not think breastfeeding is as COOL as we do; in fact some people are VERY much against it! That said, many parents would probably be appalled that their child may have the opportunity to see another woman's breast. Period. That's what it boils down to. Just like some parents don't want two gay parents holding hands in front of their kid.

Now, you said: It is most certainly fine for you to hold your opinion, but I don't think you can call yourself a breastfeeding advocate when you defend the prejudices of those would discriminate against breastfeeders and believe that breastfeeding mothers should cater to those prejudices.

Thank you for saying that because you confirm my sentiments AGAIN. There is indeed a holier-than-thou thought process amongst a lot of breastfeeding mothers. Just because I don't agree with every tenet of what a supposed breastfeeding advocate SHOULD BE then apparently I'm not WORTHY of saying mothers should breastfeed.

Riiight.

You sound like the ladies who tried to tell the Lactivist she wasn't a good breastfeeding advocate because she weaned her child before two.
At March 1, 2008 1:56 PM, Fat Lady said...: "I am open-minded enough and thoughtful enough to consider the rights of other people before nursing in front of their kid. I can also appreciate that we live in a society where everyone does not think breastfeeding is as COOL as we do; in fact some people are VERY much against it! That said, many parents would probably be appalled that their child may have the opportunity to see another woman's breast. Period. That's what it boils down to. Just like some parents don't want two gay parents holding hands in front of their kid."

This is our point of difference right here. Clearly you think it is well and good for people to hold these beliefs and you are happy and willing to cater to their prejudices.

I believe that prejudices whether against people because of their race, sexual orientation or how they feed their children are deplorable and should not be catered to in any way shape or form.

I see no reason to be considerate of anyone's right to have ideals and sensibilities that are discriminatory. They certainly have the right to have those beliefs - and I have the right to not be considerate of beliefs that are ignorant, misguided and harmful.

You can certainly call yourself whatever you want - and if you believe yourself to be a breastfeeding advocate - that's fine. You certainly work hard to uncover a lot of information about breastfeeding history - and I think your work is both interesting and admirable.

But, yes, I think that when you say that women who breastfeed should be considerate of those who are prejudiced against breastfeeding, then there is a huge hole in your advocacy and it diminishes your message.

I would say the same thing to someone who called herself a gay rights activist but told her gay friends not to walk past the children at a public school while holding hands.

I would say the same thing to someone who called themselves a human rights activist who told a black friend that they shouldn't upset the people in an all white neighborhood by moving there.

If you say that you are an advocate for something, but then defend the rights of people who are against that thing rather than the rights of others who are for it, then it raises questions about your advocacy.

I don't think there's anything holier-than-thou about that.
At March 1, 2008 2:15 PM, Jennifer James said...: Re: If you say that you are an advocate for something, but then defend the rights of people who are against that thing rather than the rights of others who are for it, then it raises questions about your advocacy.

No, rather, it says this about my advocacy: That my head isn't in the clouds and I know that forcing my ideas upon youngsters may not sit very well with their parents. It's as simple as that. It's as simple as respecting other people because women's breasts are involved -- no matter if they are being used for nursing. I don't believe in potentially raising the ire of a parent to prove a societal point.
At March 1, 2008 4:06 PM, Jake said...: Jennifer, you have me a bit confused again. What makes a school setting different from any other public place? Yes, there is a guarantee there will be children in a school setting, while in many other public settings there is simply an extremely high liklihood. So? If parents do not want their children exposed to diversity, they may chose to keep their children out of public space, including public school.

While there are many ways different kinds of discrimination can not be compared, there is one essential way in which they can - "different" people are being told that they can not have full and equal access to public space solely on the basis of their "difference." (Feel free to replace "difference" with a status name - race, sex, class, sexual preference, non-white maleness) Please tell me you are not arguing that Sally's two mommies shouldn't hold hands at her school because some parents may not want their children to see lesbians. Limiting exercise of one's right to be who you are in a public setting like a school not only infringes on the right of the adult but on the adult's child attending that school. Forcing one parent to hide who they are because of the prejudices of another parent also marginalizes the child. "Must be something wrong with breastfeeding (or being black or gay or Jewish) if mommy can't do or be that at school."

I absolutely will not make any judgments about how you choose to characterize yourself as an activist - that is none of my business (I was as offended as anyone by Weanergate). And if you believe that acceptance of public breastfeeding is hurt by people breastfeeding at school, I respect your right to make that judgment about what you think is most effective advocacy even though I disagree with you. But I want to point out what I see as the logical extension of the argument that you are making and the damage I think it can do.
At March 1, 2008 4:53 PM, Jennifer James said...: The difference between a public school and any other public place is parents do not send their children to school to learn about breastfeeding via another parent who may be nursing there.

Do you think parents have the right to be upset if their child saw a woman breastfeeding at school?
At March 1, 2008 6:17 PM, Fat Lady said...: Jake, thank you for saying exactly what I was trying to get across in a much less emotional and more concise and logical manner. You are eloquent.
At March 1, 2008 6:38 PM, Jake said...: Parents, and all people, have a right to be upset or experience any emotion about anything. But I don't have any obligation to be concerned about what upsets other people if I don't believe there is anything wrong with my behavior.

Saying "please" and "thank you" is common courtesy. Exercising my civil rights in public space is not rude. A core concept in the definition of a right is that one need not say "please."

Children are exposed to lots of things in public school, and all public space, that are offensive to their parents. It is the offended parents who must decide how they will deal with that. It isn't my problem. My kids see things in public space all the time that confuse them, offend them, or offend me. It is my job to deal with that. I would never consider saying to someone, "cover up that religious symbol it offends me and confuses my child for whom I model a different theory." THAT would be rude.

Jennifer, I reread your blog entries on this school incident and all the comments. I see you continuing to say that no one is answering your question but honestly I think people are. In my view "common courtesy" is simply irrelevant in deciding whether to exercise civil rights in public space, including public schools. Other parents can be upset (though there is no evidence I have seen that there were parents involved in this particular incident) but I don't think there is any reason why that should alter the behavior of breastfeeding women.
At March 1, 2008 6:53 PM, Jennifer James said...: Re: Parents, and all people, have a right to be upset or experience any emotion about anything. But I don't have any obligation to be concerned about what upsets other people if I don't believe there is anything wrong with my behavior.

That's the crux of the problem right there and the reason why there is such hostility between breastfeeding advocates and everyone else. No one is willing to look at life through someone else's perspective. Everyone who has commented here cannot fathom why a parent would categorically object to a mother (a stranger) breastfeeding in front of their child and frankly no one here cares because there is no obligation to care about someone else as long as you feel you're not doing anything wrong.
At March 1, 2008 9:14 PM, Jake said...: That is the point about which we will simply have to disagree. I don't think it is a problem and apparently many of the others who responded don't think it is either. I don't get why you have to turn it into some accusation about a weakness of the movement. Somehow exercising our civil rights makes us selfish? I find it hard to believe that you would make this argument about any other civil right - don't exercise it if someone might be offended.

Once again you continue to assert that we don't understand you - in fact I CAN fathom why another mother would be offended. I think I articulated that clearly in my previous post and created a hypothetical in which another mother's behavior would offend me. The reason why I would not alter my behavior is not ONLY because I don't have to - it is because not every situation which creates offense arises from rudeness or should be addressed by a change in behavior. If I am offended by expressions of religious belief, particularly in front of my children, it is ME who is rude if I interfere with the person with the religious symbol or bumper sticker. If someone is offended by my breastfeeding, SHE is rude for interfering with me.

You can go ahead and have the last word Jennifer. If you really believe that civil rights should only be exercised if no one is offended, than there is something essential here that YOU can not fathom.
At March 1, 2008 10:34 PM, Jennifer James said...: Well, I'll be happy to have the last word; it is my blog after all.

We'll never agree on this point.
At March 5, 2008 3:27 AM, Connie said...: Hi Jennifer, I think that I will agree and disagree with you :-) .

I breastfed my son until my daughter was born, when he was 2.5yo. He still nursed some afterwards - for comfort and closeness, and to help me if I had too much milk. My daughter nursed until she was almost 3yo. I nursed them anywhere, no matter who was around (in the US, in England, in Pakistan, in Egypt, etc), BUT unlike some women I have seen who just flip their shirt up and expose the world, I was discreet. Yes, little hands can flash mom, and for a short while, my son thought it was hilarious to get the milk going and then lean back so I was exposed AND milk went everywhere (thank god that didn't last!!!!) - but people can tell the difference between accidental and intentional. My breastfeeding publicly was always accepted! I never hesitated to feed my kids, but I also never skimped at attempts to be modest. Esp. in places it mattered more than other places, like at a school, or in a plane full of gender/sexuality-sensitive Muslims!
Oh, I made sure my babies could look around, but I was very conscientious of who was around me and kept my exposure to the barest minimum. NO ONE EVER WAS RUDE TO ME! I had elderly ladies HUG me while I was nursing. I had curious kids run up to see ... parents would often grab them, ask me if it was ok, yes, then let them come over and see, touch the baby, ask questions, etc. The Philapina lady we had as a nanny in Pakistan used to BRAG LOUDLY about my breastfeeding ... it is kinda hard to be discreet with a cheering section! ;-D I have lived in SE Asia and the Middle East as a white, western, (discreetly) public breastfeeding mom and never faced anything except surprise (most thought that a 'rich westerner' would not breastfeed) and sincere admiration. I even had parents, men too, make a special point of coming up while I was nursing to tell me that I was doing a good thing, it was so sweet how they'd hold their kids, boys and/or girls, (young kids and teens!) and tell them how they had nursed too... very sincere, very sweet! Gives me hope many future babies will be breastfed.

There is absolutely NO reason whatsoever that public breastfeeding AND being discreet cannot go hand in hand.
At March 6, 2008 7:34 PM, Lone Star Ma said...: I don't want to browbeat this, and I think some people, who I agree with, have expressed themselves with unnecessary ire, but I also think I and others have said how we do respect bottle feeding parents - we just expect the same respect for ourselves. I think it's kind of condescending and offensive to call that extremist and hostile. I don't feel hostile toward bottle feeding mothers who promote a bottle feeding culture of which I don't approve but which surrounds my kids just the same - I respect their choices and want them to respect mine, which most people on both sides do, even when they don't agree - but obviously not all. And I do think it's similar to getting your head bashed in at lunch counters - people get their kids taken away from them for breastfeeding them - often and forever. Some kids die because their parents didn't feel comfortable with nursing. All the things that contribute to a culture that makes it allowable to discriminate against breastfeeding families in small ways ultimately make those big ways possible.
At March 15, 2008 10:32 PM, The Bear Maiden said...: Wow.

I think I agree with the Fat Lady, and not just cuz I know her in real life and have actually sat in a public school with her while she nursed. I agree with her because when it was me, I nursed anywhere and everywhere I needed to. On a bus. In a school. In church at my Grandmother's funeral. The way I see it... people can be annoyed and uncomfortable with the idea of breastfeeding if they feel to... it's their hang up after all. And it's the adults who have a problem with it cuz I can tell you--having been there, that 98% of the children never even bat an eye.

They may come up to you and ask what you're doing. If they've never seen it, they may get a little wide-eyed, and ask a question or two, and then they get bored because baby isn't playing with them (seeing as how baby is eating) and run off and do their thing. And I'd say that about 90% of them don't spare it another thought, which is why most grown ups will never know that someone was nursing a baby in front of them.

Kids don't seem to get as freaked out by boobs... or nakedness, as adults do. Hmmm. Wonder why that is. (I used to take my then 3YO to my drawing class at Pratt, complete with naked male model--or sometimes female... and he never even blinked.)

But what I started to say was, I don't care if people get annoyed or uncomfortable at *me* because I'm nursing. But I get REALLY PISSED OFF when they start shooting dirty looks at my screaming baby because he's hungry.

And I betcha... faced with the screaming baby, or the baby who shuts up immediately when baby starts nursing... I betcha they just go on about their business.

And prejudice is prejudice. It does the same things... hurts the same way, and is based on the same principle... people fear what they don't understand. And if they never see it... they'll never understand it.

I smile at every nursing mother I see. Even is she's in my kid's school. Or on the playground. Or in the subway or on a bus or sitting on a crate in Walmart. Because it takes guts, in this day and age. And that's pretty sad, that it takes guts to feed your baby. Particularly when it doesn't take guts to whip out a bottle, or a jar of food.

I wish more people would stand up for anyone who nurses anywhere, without giving it any "buts". You either support the idea that breasts are for nursing babies, and that babies get hungry at inconvenient places like schools or churches or supermarkets or subways, and that no woman should hesitate to feed her baby no matter where she is... even if she's in front of another child, and nobody has the right to tell her she can't feed her baby... you either support that or you don't. There's no "ifs", "ands" or "buts" about it.
At March 15, 2008 10:39 PM, The Bear Maiden said...: Oh, and P.S. I actually got to be friends with a new parent at my kid's school, because she was attending her first PA meeting. Her 2YO kept doing that sideways-flip thing they do when they want to nurse. And at first he was being cooperative as she was trying to re-direct him but as he got more insistent, I could see her getting more nervous. I finally leaned over to her and said "Oh, go ahead and nurse him.. really it's OK".

And we've been friends ever since.